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Jan 11, 2011 4:33 PMPublication: The East Hampton Press

Community Reeling from Arizona Shooting

Jan 11, 2011 4:33 PM

As former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi described it, the title and job description of a member of the House of Representatives is encapsulated in one word: representative, U.S. Representative Tim Bishop recalled this week.

Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was embodying that very spirit on Saturday as she set out for a supermarket in suburban Tucson to launch her first “Congress on Your Corner” event of the new year, a series of forums she created to field questions and concerns from local constituents.

Ms. Giffords was reportedly the target and one of numerous victims of a mass shooting at the event. She was shot in the head, but doctors are optimistic about her survival, numerous media outlets reported this week. Six others were killed in the shooting, including 9-year-old Christina Green and federal judge John Roll. Fourteen others were wounded. The lone shooter in the attack is 22-year-old Jared L. Loughner, according to authorities.

The tragedy sent shock waves across the nation, and they reverberated on the East End this week. Some local officials have issued statements decrying the senseless act, and at least one member of the community, Southampton resident and human rights advocate Bob Zellner, has called for a gathering at Southampton Town Hall on Friday to address what he sees as the root of a mounting problem: an incendiary political climate that has gripped the country.

“We don’t think that violent language has any place in political discussion,” Mr. Zellner said on Monday after authoring a media advisory for the Town Hall press conference, which was originally expected to take place on Tuesday but was postponed to Friday. “It has proven that it incites unstable people and gives permission to incite acts of violence.”

New York State Assemblyman Fred W. Thiele Jr. issued a statement this week that echoed the themes Mr. Zellner highlighted. The assemblyman said that a heated political climate coupled with economic distress have resulted in the breakdown of respectful political disagreement and has given rise to inflammatory political dialogue.

“The democratic process is not a video game, with its goal to score the most points by destroying the opponent,” he said in the statement. “This tragedy must be a catalyst to bring respect back to the political culture of our country.”

Mr. Bishop, who described Ms. Giffords as a personal friend, said the House was holding off on legislative business this week. That includes a vote on a Republican-backed bill to repeal President Obama’s health care law. “We have enough emotion going on right now without adding the health care bill to it,” he said.

Mr. Bishop noted in a release that he will continue to hold forums with constituents in his district, including one on Saturday at Patchogue Village Hall.

“The most important part of my job is listening directly to my constituents, and holding regular community office hours around the district is a critical part of that effort,” Mr. Bishop said in the statement. “While we will make every effort to ensure safety, for me, not holding these kinds of meetings is simply not an option.”

Those invited to attend Friday’s event—the time of which has yet to be determined—include Southampton Town Board members Chris Nuzzi, Jim Malone, Nancy Graboski, Bridget Fleming and Supervisor Anna Throne-Holst, according to the media statement. Mr. Bishop is also expected to attend. The press release also notes that there are other pending invites.

“It’s just an opportunity for all parties, Democrats, Republicans and Independents … to come together and say, ‘Let’s have peace in politics,’” Mr. Zellner said.

Both Mr. Nuzzi and Ms. Throne-Holst expressed their condolences for the victims of the tragedy and Ms. Giffords this week.

“It’s a horrible tragedy,” Mr. Nuzzi said. “I think all of our hearts go out to the families of those who lost people and also for those who are in critical condition and for those who are just hanging on.”

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"'The democratic process is not a video game, with its goal to score the most points by destroying the opponent,' he said in the statement. 'This tragedy must be a catalyst to bring respect back to the political culture of our country.'”

Well spoken, Mr. Congressman.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jan 13, 11 11:59 AM
Bob Zellner is absolutely correct when he says: “We don’t think that violent language has any place in political discussion. It has proven that it incites unstable people and gives permission to incite acts of violence.”
By goldenrod (505), southampton on Jan 13, 11 12:42 PM
Congress should move immediately to ban all extended clips in the name of Christina Taylor Green, the 9-year old victim killed by a 22 cent bullet shot from the gun of a madman.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 13, 11 1:58 PM
Problem is that won't stop someone who wants an extended clip for criminal activity from getting one. It will however unfairly restrict the 99.99999% of legal gun owners who are responsible and law abiding.
We already have more laws in the land of the free home of the slaves than we need. Why do you think there are some many damn lawyers!
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 6:12 PM
Chris Rock said it best, that it's fine to have guns that are cheap. But if the bullet cost $5,000, maybe that would change things...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jan 13, 11 6:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
That would make for one heck of an expensive day at the range!
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 6:33 PM
Why do "law abiding citizens" need extended clips. Until 2004 we had a reasonable ban on these clips and on assault weapons - why not renew it?
By sunshine (47), southampton on Jan 13, 11 7:10 PM
2 members liked this comment
I guess you have a hard time having sympathy for Police, FBI, DEA, CIA, ATFE and our military as well as all the civilians who may use those targets.
When is the last time you were at the range philathome? Ever? See where I'm going? What do you know about someplace you've never been? Most people at most ranges I've been to shoot at round targets, on the order of 20-1.
As for frequent reloading, a wind up alarm clock has to be wound once a day on average, it's part of using one, but it ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:15 PM
Okay, I will agree that the police have a practical reason for shooting at human shaped targets. On to civilians, which is it that is the problem now round or human shaped targets? I think the act of target shooting itself is a problem to you. While there have been incidents of violence involving legally purchased firearms, do you really think that the crazies would not have obtained them illegally had they not be able to legally obtain them?
As for your opinion of emotional control and what ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 11:56 PM
Trying to equate shooting a target to shooting a person is night and day. As for if it would stir any thought no, it is a paper target, regardless of wether or not it has a face on it. Many people like to shoot at silhouettes of Bin Laden and in that case I'm quite sure they do so with the wish it was actually him.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 1:29 PM
U.S. gun culture has roots centuries old, and the U.S. Const. 2nd Amendment gives an individual right to possess firearms. But now we have a white SC gun dealer engraving “You Lie” on the handguns he sells in homage to his sucesch Congressman who hurled those words at the President in open contempt and a bloody political massacre in AZ. The country has been damaged. It will get worse if we fail to deal with current lethality.
By danrudan (40), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 5:07 PM
I think the engraving is covered by the U.S. Const. 1st Amendment.
What does the color of the gun dealer have to do with anything?

This was a horrible and tragic event, but the reason we are all so outraged, saddened and shocked is that for a nation of 300,000,000+ these things don't really happen all that often. We should all be thankful we don't live in Iraq or Afghanistan where lethality is a part of everyday life for many.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 6:08 PM
Typical nonsensical NRA talking points. You cannot have a reasonable dialogue with someone incapable of reason.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 13, 11 7:45 PM
LOL, Capt you forgot McDonalds it is lethal too, "Supersize Me" proved that!
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:17 PM
Thank you, you proved my point! Add all those deaths up and they don't even equal one carbomb in Iraq or Afghanistan. Or is it that those people are somehow less valuable than us?
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:46 PM
Really this isn't Iraq or Afghanistan? Iraq was fairly civilized before we went in the first time, as was Iran before we overthrew Democratically elected president Mosaddegh in 1953.
Our civilized society is why it is the ****storm it is over there.

I'll justify the need, because some people may want them and use them responsibly for recreation and just because one psycho used them improperly doesn't mean the clip was the problem. 31 bullets is excessive for a pistol, but we're a ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:06 AM
"We have a unique vantage point here aboard the International Space Station, as I look out the window, I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not."

"These days, we are constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict upon one another, not just with our actions, but also with our irresponsible words," he said. "We're better than this. We must do better."

~ Scott Kelly, brother-in-law of Gabrielle ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jan 13, 11 6:19 PM
The NRA should stop protecting the rights of madmen to kill. How many children have to die? Anyone who thinks banning a clip with 31 rounds is unreasonable is incapable of reason
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 13, 11 7:42 PM
He could've had two guns each with 20 rounds, that would've provided 9 more rounds and the ability to shoot in two directions. What would you be seeking to ban then?
Banning extended clips isn't going to stop a nut from flipping out, sorry.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:20 PM
Funny you talk about reason after claiming the NRA is trying to protect madmen's right to kill.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:21 PM
It's you're....
And no I'm not defending him, you always twist things to try and demonize whomever doesn't agree with your point of view.
I wish some at the scene had the cojones to tackle him while he was shooting, that would've been a real hero.
What I am defending is our right to bare arms and high capacity mags are part of it. I don't like to see the erosion of our gun rights, however noble the intentions are claimed to be.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:51 PM
You never answered: How many times have you been to a gun range?
I love how you twist words and dodge questions, you should be a politician.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 9:54 PM
FAIL.... You didn't answer the question....
Who is the we you refer to? Is it you and your multiple personalities? All liberal to a fault.
Many people were injured and killed, but to say a law against the capacity of a clip would've saved anyone is pure nonsense. I have a feeling this guy didn't give to ****s about what the law said. I mean they did have a law against murder on the books in Arizona right? A lot of good it did. Wake up, banning a type of gun or all guns won't stop crazies ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:14 AM
"And FYI I haven't twisted anything-I've been on topic,not deflecting to shooting ranges" - philathome

Really? See your below comment which preceded mine about shooting ranges. Unless man shaped targets aren't found at shooting ranges. I brought up police and other law enforcement officers, because while they do practice with these for work, many also find it fun.

"It's hard to have sympathy for someone who gets excited about shooting at a man-shaped target." philathome

And ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:21 AM
Sorry, but you "facts" are wrong Arizona's gun laws are not the most lax in the country. Vermont for instance has the same laws and look at their gun related deaths.
I did look at your links and it was interesting, but it didn't sway me to the collective punishment solution on firearms. As I said a law won't protect people, as murder was illegal and still happened. Granted he got the gun and clip legally, but to say if a law was in place he wouldn't have been able to get either is far from a ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:51 PM
You made it about you by claim knowledge of the shape of targets which people choose to shoot, which is why I asked you if you had ever been to a range, even just once or do you base you opinion on what you read, hear or fear?
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:54 PM
Food for thought, what if people started driving vehicles on crowded sidewalks to carry out their mass killing agendas? Do we the seek to outlaw vehicles or sidewalks? Collective punishment is not the answer. It isn't that I think extended clips are necessary, but it is the first step on a slippery slope, if we concede to this control what is next? We risk setting a precedent where by every time some whackjob goes off and dose something horrible like this more regulations come in. The assault weapons ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:35 AM
Once again sensationalism, no one is defending that particular individuals right to bear arms, but the rest of the sane law abiding citizens rights, which will be infringed on due to his actions = collective punishment.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 12:56 PM
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 8:46 AM
This from Erich Pratt, the director of communications for Gun Owners of America:

“These politicians need to remember that these rights aren’t given to us by them. They come from God. They are God-given rights. They can’t be infringed or limited in any way. What are they going to do: limit it two or three rounds. Having lots of ammunition is critical, especially if the police are not around and you need to be able to defend yourself against mobs.”

God gave ...more
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 8:58 AM
LOL, look who's talking paranoia!
As for the above statement from Mr. Pratt, I don't buy the whole God thing to begin with, so I see that as crazy. Much the same as the whole virgin Mary giving birth thing.
As for states limiting gun rights, it seems there is a double standard, states can't make laws regarding immigration, but they can make laws regarding guns? Hmmmmm, just another inconsistency?
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 1:02 PM
"Now comes the tragedy in Tucson. And what do gun advocates propose? More guns. Arizona already lets people carry concealed weapons without requiring permits. The legislature is considering two bills to expand this right, and as Slate's David Weigel reports, the Arizona Citizens Defense League is preparing legislation that would require the state to offer firearms training to politicians and their staff. The bill is tentatively titled the Giffords-Zimmerman Act in honor of the wounded congresswoman ...more
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 9:03 AM
Yeah, let's take all guns away from all law abiding citizens and see the free for all that results from the criminals having nothing to fear!
The idea of training people to use their guns safely and properly is a great idea. I agree that buying a gun should require some form of prerequisite training.
Much the same as it should be for boats.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 1:24 PM
Did I say you said that? Show me where I said you said that.... lol You can't because never said it-so your trying to put words in my mouth to support your argument.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 6:51 PM
While we are all entitled to our opinions about gun ownership, the second ammendment guatantees us that very right. Read it.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jan 14, 11 9:52 AM
No, your 'opinion' about gun ownership is protected by the first amendment. By the way, when the second amendment was written there was no 31 round gun clip readily available.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 14, 11 10:59 AM
Progress now - When the 14th Amendment was written there weren't women crossing the boarder with the sole purpose of giving birth to an anchor baby. I'm willing to bet the framers of the Constitution would uphold the 2nd Amendment as they wanted us armed, that capacities have increased has no bearing on their intent. Doubtful those responsible for the 14th would agree with the manner in which it is being exploited now.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 1:10 PM
2 members liked this comment
Thank you, Ice for making my point, exactly. The constitution is a living, breathing document. The founders wrote a document that was very specific to their day and, over the years, we have amended it as needed, allowing women to vote, recognizing blacks as fellow-humans, and even placing limits on free speech where it concerned personal safety.

The NRA and, apparently you, hold the second amendment as sacred, beyond reproach, absolute- yet you think it is OK to revise an amendment ...more
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 14, 11 2:14 PM
I won't waste my time with you progress as you wish to despoil our country with criminals who cross our borders to give birth to unfunded liabilities and claim it is their right due to the 14th Amendment.
Meanwhile the 2nd Amendment is still valid as it was written due to the original intent of being able to have an organized militia who with limited clips wouldn't be effective against others armed with high capacity clips.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 6:42 PM
philathome - your paranoia about the 2nd Amendment is abundantly clear. The answer to this problem is not to ban the tool of choice, but to provide better security and or screening of individuals seeking firearms. I have no problem with taking a closer look at those who wish to purchase guns, although if one truly is intent on getting a gun with whatever capacity clip, they can do so illegally. This brings us back to better security, so if someone does start shooting, there is an immediate armed ...more
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 1:18 PM
1 member liked this comment
Sorry, wasn't claiming you are mentally ill. Just uninformed when it comes to firearms and maybe a wee bit uncomfortable with them, which explains your lack of rationality.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 6:49 PM
Those clips are pretty long, but I've got em beat on thickness! lol
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 8:25 PM
Actually GIRTH is a better word!
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 15, 11 6:01 PM
"Gun violence costs about 2.4 billion dollars annually to the criminal justice system in America, which is almost equal to all other crimes put together. Each homicide results in approximately $244,000 of incarceration expenses for our taxpayers. Indirect costs are high as well; for example, local governments across our country spend up to $100 million each year just on bulletproof vests. Most of these bills are then passed on to the taxpayers."
Gun control= lower taxes? Food for thought...
Source: ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 1:58 PM
2 members liked this comment
Show me where the constitution says anything about your right to own an automatic weapon and a cartridge that can hold 31 bullets, capt'n crunch. Show me where the constitution says you have the right to own armor piercing bullets or an uzi. You want to own the same guns as those available at the time of the writing of the constitution, you should feel free to do so.

There's a big difference between a criminal having to go out and find a gun and us handing it to him on a silver pallet. ...more
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 2:46 PM
There goes peeplesfirst pants wetting again! LOL
Automatic weapon? Armor piercing ammo? Who on this thread said these should be openly available? As for an Uzi, they are perfectly legal to own provided they aren't automatic, in which case one would need to obtain a class 3 permit to own one.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 6:47 PM
When guns are outlawed only the criminals will have guns
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jan 14, 11 2:05 PM
No one is talking about outlawing guns. We need sensible REGULATION. Nobody needs an extended magazine that holds 31 bullets.

"The gun lobby's vision is guns in every corner of American society. The National Rifle Association wants guns in more American homes. It wants more guns on the streets, in grocery stores, in restaurants, in coffee houses, in bars, in churches, at workplaces, at political events, and on college campuses. Guns everywhere, to deter criminals from attacking and ...more
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 14, 11 2:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
progressnow don't forget much of the homicide that occurs in AZ is from you border hopping buddies.

By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 8:28 PM
"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands!"
By 27dan (2854), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 2:11 PM
Don't blame liberals for gun control. The truth is below - I especially like the part about Ronald Reagan.

'In 1969, journalist William Safire asked Richard Nixon what he thought about gun control. "Guns are an abomination," Nixon replied. According to Safire, Nixon went on to confess that, "Free from fear of gun owners' retaliation at the polls, he favored making handguns illegal and requiring licenses for hunting rifles."

It was President George Bush, Sr. who banned the import ...more
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 14, 11 2:17 PM
1 member liked this comment
Reagan was a typical republican, didn't give a crap about the safety of Americans until he was shot himself.
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 2:40 PM
Oh, I liked him as a liberal (he was quite progressive actually) but not as a dittohead republican. Let me tell you a few of my favorite things he did and/or said, I am sure you will agree:

* $165 billion bailout of Social Security in 1983

* One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year's reduction. Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this ...more
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 3:13 PM
To everyone who is calling for stricter gun laws in light of the tragedy in Tucson, may I offer this little tidbit: If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat! Remember: Hold the person accountable for their actions, not the means they chose to utilize
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 6:52 PM
1 member liked this comment
Indeed, without infringing upon the rights of others who pose no threat. Look, I personally have no need or desire for a 31 round clip in a hand gun. In an assault rifle, yes. NYS limits the clip capacity in both to 10 rounds, but if a magazine is manufactured prior to the inception of the 1994 NYS assault weapons ban it is still legal. This is why pre-ban clips fetch such a high price in NY.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 7:14 PM
I've seen this analogy all over the social media sites and I take issue with it. Pencils were created for writing, not killing or injuring an enemy. Cars were created for travel, not killing or injuring an enemy. Spoons were created for feeding, not killing or injuring an enemy. And what were guns created for? You got it- killing or injuring an enemy. And while ultimately, the person who pulls the trigger is responsible for their actions, the bottom line is that guns serve no other purpose than ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 8:17 PM
Target shooting is a purpose that guns serve, as is hunting. I have no problem with background checks either. 31 rounds is excessive for a pistol, but just the same I like have the option on the table, especially because if taken off, who decides how many rounds in a clip is okay?
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 8:33 PM
An important feature of control on a personal basis is safe storage which hasn't been brought up. My pistols are in a safe where they cannot be stolen by a burglar or accessed without my knowledge.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 14, 11 8:37 PM
While I agree that safe gun storage is an important factor (obviously) I think it has little to do with the case of Jared Loughner. This was an individual who legally purchased a firearm despite the existence of numerous signals that he was one who surely should not be in possession of a deadly weapon. There were a lot of wheels in motion that led to this tragedy and all aspects of it should be examined including gun regulations and mental health services in universities. I mean really, how insane ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 9:24 PM
As this story unfolded it became clear that the tragedy occurred because no one diagnosed and treated a delusional man whose symptoms of mental illness were as obvious as the symptom of the physical illness of leprosy. That's the way it is in the entire country. Mental health is separated from physical health by the health insurers and grossly underfunded. It often takes many hours of studying symptoms before a psychiatrist can make an accurate diagnosis but none of them are given the time. ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jan 14, 11 10:29 PM
Those who trade Liberty for security have neither.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Jan 15, 11 11:20 AM
Exactly. Gun control now.
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Jan 15, 11 12:06 PM
1 member liked this comment
PF rarely does make sense.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 15, 11 6:03 PM
I am not a strict constructionist of the Constitution. Basically, I approve of those constructions by the Supreme Court that expand our individual rights and disapprove of those that constrict them. It is partly for this reason that I disapprove of any attempts to limit the 2nd Amendment absent a Constitutional amendment.

However, I do not share the belief of my fellow residents that we can leave our protection in the hands of the police. Moreover, I realize that the factor that makes ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jan 15, 11 1:42 PM
2 members liked this comment
Lets not for get our history 101 An armed man is a Citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.... Thats why the Second Amendment is in place in case the government ignores the others
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Jan 16, 11 12:13 AM
And right now some crack head from the Hill might be planning to burgle my home. I can and will defend myself, thanks to the 2nd ammendment and the hard work of the NRA>
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jan 16, 11 10:44 AM
2 members liked this comment
Just an fyi, I consulted someone more knowledgeable than I about Rep. Gifford's injuries and she said that the bullet may have damaged Broca's Area in the left frontal hemisphere of the brain which governs speech. The Representative's failure to speak up until now may be symptomatic.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jan 16, 11 1:07 PM
Thats right Big Fresh A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the ‘phone.
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Jan 16, 11 1:52 PM
Hogwash! Speaking the truth about a leftist administration isn't demonization.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jan 17, 11 12:54 PM
1 member liked this comment
we dont care you will Never get our guns get got good
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Jan 17, 11 2:01 PM
Gun Control is not about guns; it’s about control, and I control my property and who comes on It. NOW, GET OFF MY LAWN
By 27dan (2854), Southampton on Jan 17, 11 2:06 PM
What is it about the name Phil
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jan 17, 11 2:43 PM
Phil is just stamping his feet becuase Boston got there clock cleaned
By joe hampton (3461), south hampton on Jan 17, 11 2:45 PM
Per Websters, Civility:

a : civilized conduct; especially : courtesy, politeness;

b : a polite act or expression

By PBR (4956), Southampton on Jan 17, 11 7:10 PM