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Story - News

Jul 8, 2014 12:13 PMPublication: The East Hampton Press

Hobby Lobby Ruling Called A Setback By Tim Bishop And Victory By Lee Zeldin

Jul 8, 2014 3:40 PM

Last week’s U.S. Supreme Court decision to exempt a private company, Hobby Lobby, from offering some forms of birth control to its female employees through the federal Affordable Care Act has highlighted the differences between U.S. Representative Tim Bishop and his Republican challenger, New York State Senator Lee Zeldin: Mr. Bishop has criticized the decision, while Mr. Zeldin has called it a victory for religious freedom.

On Monday, Mr. Bishop said that while the magnitude of the decision, and its effect, is yet to be seen, he believes it to be a setback for women’s health care.

“It is a step backward, no question about it, for protecting health care options of women,” Mr. Bishop said in a phone interview. “People talk about the government coming between an individual and his or her health care—this is an employer coming between an individual and her health care, and I think that is simply wrong.”

On the other hand, Mr. Zeldin said the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling is not about restricting access to birth control, but about allowing owners of family businesses to “stay true” to their religious beliefs.

“The Constitution protects us from intrusive federal government for exactly these kinds of situations,” Mr. Zeldin said. “Reasonable people can disagree on social issues, but our rights have to be maintained so that the rights of some citizens don’t trump the rights of others.”

The Green family, which owns the Oklahoma-based crafts supply chain Hobby Lobby, opposes what it calls abortion-causing contraceptives—the IUD and the “morning after” pill, RU486—that interfere with a fertilized egg attaching in the womb.

Under the Affordable Care Act, often called Obamacare, companies must offer workers all forms of contraception approved by the federal Food and Drug Administration. In its decision last week, the Supreme Court ruled, 5-4, that the government cannot “substantially burden” the exercise of religion without compelling justification.

In his written decision, Justice Samuel Alito argued that the ruling was narrow, applying only to closely held corporations, under very specific circumstances. A closely held corporation is one with no more than a handful of investors.

In opposition, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the decision had “startling breadth,” and could set the precedent for companies to opt out of any law, except tax laws, that they oppose with sincerely held religious beliefs.

Mr. Bishop agreed that prospect could be very detrimental.

“If applied to fairly and legitimately held beliefs in other religions, it could be even more far-reaching and more troublesome of a ruling,” he said, noting that some religious people are against blood transfusions. “It’s a very slippery slope, fraught with perhaps unintended consequences.”

Mr. Bishop said only time will tell as far as the impact of the decision on other civil rights cases, but that it depends on how the decision is actually interpreted. If it is narrowly defined, or specific to this case alone, it may not be as far-reaching as many fear, he said, although he said he would still think the ruling is wrong.

Mr. Bishop said companies have been required to provide health insurance access to consumers in New York State since 1999 and that there was no outcry about having to provide birth control at that time. And Obamacare, he said, aims to expand access to quality affordable care and drive down the rate of increase in costs. He said these goals exist irrespective of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling.

Mr. Zeldin said the decision was very specific and that some people will try to make it seem more, or less, than it actually is. He said people should wait for the Supreme Court to decide on the next case.

As far as weakening access to coverage, Mr. Zeldin said Obamacare has actually taken away access to quality health care,

“It isn’t even fully implemented, and we’re seeing too many cases of individuals and families losing doctors, losing jobs, new policies that are worse than old policies, and higher deductibles and premiums,” he said, noting that he would support a repeal of the Affordable Care Act.

“Women have access to contraception, and for lower-income Americans there already exists access to all different kinds of services with regard to health decisions,” Mr. Zeldin said. “The New York State Medicaid system is one of the most expansive Medicaid systems in the county, spending $1 billion a week.”

The Supreme Court decision cited not only the First Amendment, protecting the free exercise of religion, but also the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which allowed exemptions from having to provide contraception to women in the case of certain religious nonprofit organizations.

In those cases, the insurers covered the cost of contraception, without raising prices for employers or their workers. The justices in favor of the more recent decision argued that if that provision can be made for nonprofits, it makes sense to do the same here.

Mr. Bishop said there must be coverage available for everyone. He said Congress is in recess right now, but that the matter will be discussed to see what options exist,

“I think we have to explore all means by which to see that coverage is available,” he said. “Whether or not it’s something government pays for remains an open question, and whether or not insurance pays remains an open question. But providing coverage is essential.”

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Religion has no place in civic life in the United States of America. This ruling has grossly undermined the separation of church and state in this country.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 11, 14 9:31 AM
3 members liked this comment
Huh?

I'm not a Bible-thumper, but really?
By Frank Wheeler (1826), Northampton on Jul 11, 14 9:45 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By Frank Wheeler (1826), Northampton on Jul 11, 14 9:45 AM
16 of 20 contraceptive options are still covered (and paid for) by Hobby Lobby after the decision. The four that are not, are considered morning after (Plan B) and still available to the person if desired.

Grossly undermined separation of church and state? Please.
By Mr. Snerdley (397), Southampton on Jul 11, 14 12:15 PM
They don't want to provide methods of contraception because of their religion, and are a corporate entity operating in a civic environment.

You do not have the right to impose your beliefs on others in this country. Period, full stop. That is exactly what this decision does, and it violates the spirit of the First Amendment. You can believe in a flying spaghetti monster for all I care, but once it starts interfering with someone else's right to be free from your religion, "We" have a ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 11, 14 5:11 PM
2 members liked this comment
The subject matter is RELIGION. It seems you failed to glean that from the discussion.

Allow me to rephrase my post for the challenged chowderheads in the audience:

You do not have the right to impose your RELIGIOUS beliefs on others in this country. Period, full stop.

Typical description of libertarian retort: "WAAAAA, they legislated personal responsibility. WAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!"
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 12, 14 7:42 AM
2 members liked this comment
No. The issue is WHY they are not paying for it.

Their decision to not pay for it is based on religious objection.
Jul 13, 14 2:09 AM appended by Mr. Z
If they want a religious objection, found a church. Otherwise, denying someone's freedom to choose because of an objection based in religion in a civic environment violates the First Amendment. If you don't want to fund certain forms of contraception, found a church not a corporation.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 2:09 AM
So you can impose ANYTHING upon people EXCEPT religious beliefs?
By razza5350 (1911), East Hampton on Jul 13, 14 11:30 PM
Please don't breed.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 11:52 PM
Fortunately I have two great kids. How about you?
By razza5350 (1911), East Hampton on Jul 14, 14 7:16 AM
Z - you said: "denying someone's freedom to choose because of an objection based in religion in a civic environment violates the First Amendment."

Hobby Lobby isn't denying someone's freedom to choose. They're just not paying for it. Furthermore, Hobby Lobby isn't forcing anyone to work for them. Don't like what the company offers (or doesn't offer?) leave. If enough people feel that way, they'll go out of business or change their ways.

Aziz Ansari has a joke about a racist ...more
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 14, 14 10:43 AM
Their objection is based on RELIGION in a CIVIC environment.

If you can't grasp that, then debate is pointless. You cannot apply religion in a civic environment in this country. If you think you can, go ahead and post the Ten Commandments in a break room at any retail chain in the nation.

I guarantee a lawsuit is filed same day, if not next day.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 14, 14 5:58 PM
There is NO denial of someone's freedom to chose though. They just aren't going to pay for it - doesn't DENY someone the right to obtain it.
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 15, 14 9:15 AM
And not for nothin' but Chic-fil-a is closed on sundays for "religious" reasons. Is that not a "civic" environment?
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 15, 14 9:16 AM
It's more likely no one has challenged that policy as of yet. Moreover, it would be a pointless endeavor. I mean really, who would complain about having Sunday off anyway?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 6:38 PM
Mr Z keeps referring to a, "civil environment" - an expression meaningless. Hobby Lobby, a privately owned and operated business, very reasonably provides no fewer than 14 different, covered choices of birth control. They do not, however, believe in any abortive measures and that is their right. Even if their beliefs were not religiously derived, they should still be entitled to those beliefs and refuse to allow those measures to be covered via their health insurance. Nobody is denying employees ...more
By JudyannJoyner RN (2), Bayside, New York on Oct 15, 14 3:16 PM
Personal responsibility. This really should be a non-issue, but we are becoming children of the nanny state and expect way too much. Healthcare coverage should not provide contraception and it has nothing to do with religion. It's a simple matter of personal responsibility. Enough already, people. Adult behavior isn't a one way street.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 11:55 AM
I think anything that limits a woman reproductive rights is a huge step back. I do understand that this ruling does not say "you can't use birth control". The company just doesn't want to pay for it. Birth control also ensures a woman a satisfying sex life without the worry of pregnancy. Does Obamacare cover erectile dysfunction medicines? They ensure a satisfying sex life for men,Don't they?
By springsmom (29), East Hampton on Jul 11, 14 12:08 PM
Cool. So I'm bald. I'd like propecia and rogaine. You got that covered for me? No, that's my responsibility, right? But your right to satisfying sex is my responsibility. Shall I provide you with mood music and candles too?
My monthly insurance bill is $1550. Tell me what else you need so we can hit $2000 soon.
The entitled attitude of too many in this country is absolutely mind blowing.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 12:33 PM
Nope. Same thing... Personal responsibility. That's on your dime.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 9:02 PM
Your vanity has zero to do with overpopulation and responsible people who can't have kids taking preventive measures to ensure they don't. Also, not that I imagine you care, but birth control pills can be uses to elevate other female health issues.

And this is about hobby lobby and religion. They are using region as a reason NOT provide care. That is the real issue.
By Polandspring (96), Southampton on Jul 13, 14 9:29 AM
2 members liked this comment
I think Bald is really sexy!!
By springsmom (29), East Hampton on Jul 11, 14 12:40 PM
You wouldn't like me as I hold people accountable and expect adults to act like adults.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 12:47 PM
And perhaps beyond. My fear is we do have representative govt, meaning the idiots have win the day. Sure seems that way.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 9:04 PM
Mr. Bishop, speaking of right and wrong, how about getting this little ethics problem resolved? " Not even a smidgen of corruption?" Oh, nuts, that attempt to downplay corruption has already been taken.
By TheTurtle (143), Southampton on Jul 11, 14 3:57 PM
Phil have you ever considered results over intent? Once you start judging by results, you realize what an absolute failure your beloved Obama has been. That's not an endorsement of anyone else, but rather an honest assessment of a failed presidency.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 11, 14 9:08 PM
Because the constitution states that we have a right to safe and satisfying sex. Uh, nope.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 7:30 AM
Unreal. They don't make contraception for men? It's a one way street? You are such a blind indoctrinated follower of liberal nonsense it's comical.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 8:03 AM
ED meds should be removed. Calling me an idiot doesn't help your case Philly. You are still spewing liberal talking points while failing to consider the big picture. That's not a shock.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 8:23 AM
1 member liked this comment
Then you simply have no idea what right wingers are or what their talking points are. Matters not, color me a conservative if it means pushing back on the liberal chaos. I don't really care. For the sake of returning to something resembling order and sense, I will abandon some social issues and back the enemy of my enemy. You will see a lot of that this November.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 1:35 PM
Funny how you can read a post in Recent Comments and know exactly who wrote it.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 12, 14 9:21 PM
Condoms?
By Polandspring (96), Southampton on Jul 13, 14 9:37 AM
Could you imagine such a thing?
My wife likes to look pretty. Are cosmetics covered too? I mean, it's all connected, isn't it?
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 10:11 AM
Oh wait Phil, let me go find something to cut and paste.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 13, 14 2:12 PM
You know full well that cosmetic reasons are not valid for health care coverage. Most likely never will be. ED is a physical ailment and can be related to other covered conditions. Vasectomies were not reversible until recently, and contraception via pharmaceutical means a valid medical purpose for coverage.

And, the ladies do receive some benefits via Viagra...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 5:15 PM
The Supremes got this one right. Forcing Hobby Lobby to provide morning after contraception would violate their RIGHTS, thanks for making the point Mr Z! IMHO companies should not be forced to provide health insurance for their employees in the first place, but that's another discussion.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jul 12, 14 7:40 AM
Typical idiotic libertarian retort. What makes this country great is not just individualism, but who "We" are together. An individual did not win this country's independence. An individual alone did not win either World War.

You do not have the right to apply your religious beliefs in a civic environment. PERIOD. It's the main reason why outlawing same sex marriage in outside of a church in a civic environment is unconstitutional. The separation of Church and State exists for a reason, ...more
Jul 12, 14 7:48 AM appended by Mr. Z
And, "We" as companies have FAR better bargaining and negotiating potential with large corporations that we can EVER have as individuals. It bears mentioning that the spark which lit the fires of revolution in this country (Boston Tea Party) was not only a revolt against the Oligarchy of the British Crown and the Dutch East India company, it was an anti-corporate revolt. It's why the men who founded this country BARRED corporations from participation in our political process. No lobbyists, no influencing elections, and ABSOLUTELY no donating to political campaigns. You really need to learn the fluff fiction laden history they've taught in schools for decades...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 12, 14 7:48 AM
1 member liked this comment
Pardon:

"You really need to UNlearn the fluff fiction laden history they've taught in schools for decades..."
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 12, 14 7:56 AM
Yeah but who we are together should have limits. If you include contraception, then include everything. I can cite a number of ailments or issues that insurance companies deem elective or not necessary. There comes a point where we stop making healthcare this all encompassing animal, and try to return it to what it was supposed to be.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 8:01 AM
They blew it when they upheld the personal mandate "tax" in the ACA. It's actually funny. The same people who signed up for plans with $6000 in post tax deductibles are screaming about free contraception. War on women? War on sense.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 8:20 AM
Right. End result being ACA getting pushed through when it never should have. Then the libs were happy with SCOTUS, but now not so much. Funny how that works. Apparently, everything should flow in one direction. Healthcare coverage should have limits. In this case an unfortunate mean to an end, but that's how we fight battles these days. So be it.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 12, 14 1:29 PM
What??? The ACA benefits everyone??? Once again you judge on intent and not result.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 8:12 AM
Well I'm sure all the wingnuts who had their policies cancelled will feel good about that.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 10:07 AM
1 member liked this comment
" the HL RULING allows corporations to impose the religious beliefs of its owners on the employees of that corporation."

Nope. It just means they don't have to provide contraception. Making them bathe in holy water would be a different story there, Philly. Why do hate personal responsibility, Philly? Every time a matter of personal responsibility comes up you lose your mind. Then you call people names. You call people names from a computer, Philly. And you say they are angry. That's called ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 10:17 AM
"The SCOTUS is turning us into Iran."
Yes, the logical mini-step from businesses not providing contraception to Islamic Republic of America.
I'm glad that you are reasonable and not overly dramatic. It makes our debates a worthwhile endeavor.
BTW - what's Obama turning us in to? Please apply the same level headed logic before answering.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 6:10 PM
to Captn America:

Dear god, now you claim that the Supremes did NOT uphold the ACA. No acid-tripping hippy ever had his perception distorted by drugs as thoroughly as yours is by belief.

You are doubtless unaware of the fact that Donald Verrilli Jr.'s argument before the court made a strong case for the government's power to impose the ACA as a tax. All Roberts et al. did was AGREE.

Thus your assertion that the Supremes "redefined" the law and "overstepped their role" ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 12, 14 3:16 PM
to Captn America:

Just what, "portions of the ACA were rewritten, in order to find in constitutional"? Perhaps you could post some of those "portions" to prove your case, showing both the FORMER text and the SUBSEQUENT redrafting. You cannot, because there was no such editing. The law, as written by congress, was approved by the Supremes who agreed with the argument of the solicitor general that it was a constitutional form of taxation.

How often must you be reminded that (to ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 13, 14 12:13 PM
Healthcare reform mandated oral contraceptives for no copayment. In order to accommodate non profit religious organizations that did not was to participate in the distribution of these devices and medicines - the insurance companies agree to pay for them. Much cheaper to pay the volume discount on r/x than the complicated premie twin.

All the Hobby Lobby deal said was the same mechanism in play for non profit religious organizations should stand for other organizations who object on ...more
Jul 13, 14 5:47 PM appended by The Modern Era
Mr. Z, you wrote this "The problem is one is a church/faith based organization. A corporation is not. It operates in a civic environment for profit to serve the needs/demand of consumers in a public environ." yet it does not mean anything. what is the problem with the scotus saying that the mechanism to fix this exists for faith based organizations, now make the same thing for privately own entitites. this is a win-win-win and nobody except those who want to strangle their fellow man for reasons unkonwn to even themselves would be upset about this.
By The Modern Era (6), Southampton on Jul 12, 14 5:47 PM
The problem is one is a church/faith based organization. A corporation is not. It operates in a civic environment for profit to serve the needs/demand of consumers in a public environ.

This decision brings faith objection into a civic environment, and denies rights to persons in the aforementioned civic environment based on religion. They can't post the Ten Commandments in the break room, now can they?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 2:31 AM
Mr. Z, I challenge you to support what you have stated here. I challenge you to find a singe employee of hobby lobby has had her/his right denied. It is 7:48am on July 14th, take as long as you want.
By The Modern Era (6), Southampton on Jul 14, 14 7:49 AM
In case you missed it, the posts are time stamped.

The exception has been made by a court decision. It denies contraception benefits to individuals who would choose them, versus any other employee of other companies who receive the benefits. An actual person being affected is moot, and irrelevant as the spirit of the law and the separation of Church and State is what is in question here. But, be my guest to engage in deflection at your leisure...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 6:43 PM
To return to the subject of this article, which is the clear and wide difference between Congressman Tim bishop and his challenger, Lee Zeldin, on this issue, there's an election coming up in a couple of months. Then we'll see how many of the women voters in the First District want their personal contraception decisions to be made by their bosses. Bishop wins on this one, and it may be just potent enough to carry him to victory all by itself.
By Turkey Bridge (1979), Quiogue on Jul 13, 14 11:17 AM
2 members liked this comment
"we'll see how many of the women voters in the First District want their personal contraception decisions to be made by their bosses."
What??? They are free to use whatever they want. They just have to purchase it. Why is this so mind blowing? We aren't talking about chemotherapy here, this is birth control. A responsibility of the individual. You people are reaching. Insurance isn't expensive enough? We have to pump more things into it? Buy your own contraception ladies and gentlemen.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 13, 14 6:16 PM
Watching the influx of unaccompanied minors crossing our southwestern border daily, a reasonable man could conclude that we are living out the fevered dreams of a dystopian novel. The United States has lost a basic aspect of sovereignty. Control over its borders is a relic of the past.This out of control megalomaniac is trying to permanently change the demographic of this country and turn It blue at any cost.
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 13, 14 1:32 PM
Not a bad idea, Joe, that turning the country blue via unbridled immigration, though I believe the President is somewhat more principled than I am, and thus wouldn't really go for it -- part of why I favored Hillary C. over him in '08, but that's another conversation.

Here's another idea, doing a little notional border-crossing and taking a global view. This "influx of unaccompanied minors" you're talking about, isn't this a problem that would alleviated by more contraception rather than ...more
By Turkey Bridge (1979), Quiogue on Jul 13, 14 2:56 PM
I would hardly call George W. Bush a megalomaniac. Cheney on the other hand has great qualifications.

The law allowing them to stay was crafted years ago. In addition the interviews which are conducted determine that at least half of them are eligible to be granted either asylum or special immigrant juvenile protection. Some of them are getting are getting U or T type visas. Gang violence, general lawlessness, our failed "Drug War", human trafficking, whatever the reason their interview ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 5:02 PM
Near as I can tell, it's not a message from the President.

It's that the people have figured out how to use the law, and told all their relatives. But, go ahead and play the blame game. Due to a massive backlog, permissions will not be so forthcoming. But, people will discover that our system is underfunded the hard way. As usual, plenty of money to subsidize corporate profit, but never enough for infrastructure.

Panem, et circenses...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 6:19 PM
Yep, smoke and mirrors to appease the masses.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 13, 14 6:58 PM
There was a great social experiment done some years ago. A group of fifty people were told to write their names on a balloon. Those balloons were placed in a room, and people were told to find the balloon with their name on it in less than five minutes.

Needless to say, the scene was chaos and no one found their balloon. They were then instructed to take a balloon at random, and find that person. Everyone got their balloon in no time flat.

Great object lesson, IMHO.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 7:13 PM
Hay Timmy why don't you stop putting womens rights as a political agenda for you, gov't has no place in making medical decisions for males or females, your just another idiot POLITICIAN trying to get re-elected, spare real Americans of your crap, maybe the Fluke girl can help you.
By MACDADDY (49), SOUTHAMPTON on Jul 13, 14 5:19 PM
to Captn America:

Quoter:

"[W]hile the law that allows some to stay was crafted in 2008, it is under Obama's watch that the message was sent that permisos will be granted. There is a distinct reason why the is happening now ... "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More utterly delusional, completely unsupportable fantasizing by a True Believer. The reason that there has been a deluge of unaccompanied, undocumented minor ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 13, 14 8:30 PM
"Zombie Lies"

~ Bill Maher
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 13, 14 8:45 PM
1 member liked this comment
~ BILL MAHER ~ There was a study done that found out online conversations that were intercepted and stored by the NSA -- nine out of ten were not from foreigners, they are from ordinary citizens, and I want to read this: Many files, it says, described as useless by the analysts had a startlingly intimate, even voyeuristic quality. Stories of love and heartbreak, illicit sexual liaisons, mental health crises and disappointed hopes. Move over, Taxicab Confessions, we have a new --

This is ...more
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 14, 14 11:37 AM
Plan B One-Step is sold in pharmacies without a prescription and without any age restrictions. I don't believe it's customary for over-the-counter medications to be covered by insurance anyway.
By lamm (304), Southampton on Jul 13, 14 11:47 PM
Liberalism = the inability to decipher
Want from need
Theory from practice
Intent from result
Responsibility from entitlement
Fiscally sound from Fiscally unsupportable
Sovereignty from chaos
liberty from dependency
leadership from agenda

Mr. Zeldin, please beat Tim Bishop. If you do, don't be a sellout.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 14, 14 9:18 AM
Please. "Conservatives" have touted the same old story since the late 19th century. It's failed. Repeatedly.

The "capitalism" we live under isn't. It's a state of Oligarchy which we exist in. Learn your history. And, just for the record "trickle down", Reaganomics, Mellonomics, Horse and Sparrow, it's all the same thing. It failed in 1837,1857, 1866, royally in 1869, 1873 heralded the Long Depression, 1893, 1896, 1901, 1907, massively in 1929, 1937,(note the 50 year gap, thanks to the ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 14, 14 9:35 AM
And this is working?
Look at every consensus polling data that you can find. Check out approvals by category: Economy, immigration, foreign policy, healthcare, you name it. The country disagrees with the policies of this Admin. I don't forgive the sins of any current Admin based on what the others have done. GWB was a failure. Obama is failing. Next!
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 14, 14 9:41 AM
As long as America accepts less than mediocre results, we will get less than mediocre leadership. Vote them out. Send a message. Demand better.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 14, 14 9:44 AM
And finally, because I do actually work, the same people that are crying about contraception are the same ones who defend Obama's failure at the border. So we have kids dying, being abused, piled up like animals in gyms, because of a political power play by an imperial president, who refuses to take action and enforce our laws.
This is not leadership, it's failure. So how do we protest? With out vote. Sometimes it's a bitter pill to swallow.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 14, 14 9:49 AM
JON VOIGHT: Obama wrote a book about his father, who he seems to idealize. It's a fact that his father was a Marxist who hated America because he saw America as aggressors. Meanwhile, it was America who helped all of the other nations whenever they were in need. Obama never has acknowledged that and in fact, went across the world apologizing for it and is piece-by-piece widdling down our military strength, the strength all the world has relied on. And in doing so, he has paved the way for the most ...more
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 14, 14 10:47 PM
to 27dan:

One wonders, with equal interest, what Voight's thoughts are regarding the nature of the god whose benediction he invokes, or what his favorite pizza is.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 14, 14 11:23 PM
No DS, obviously our system is not working. The middle class is vanishing, the poor are getting poorer, Republicans want to REDUCE wages for those already earning the minimum, and raising the wage seems to be working so far in states who have done it.

They called Henry Ford crazy for the $5 a day wage, and those who put up with and abided by the attached strings did rather well, and helped to drive GDP in this country. No matter how many people are educated and get degrees, for some time ...more
Jul 15, 14 12:01 AM appended by Mr. Z
"He mocks the People who proposes that the Government shall protect the rich and that they in turn will care for the laboring poor. Any intermediary between the People and their Government, or the least delegation of the care and protection the Government owed to the humblest citizen in the land makes the boast of free institutions a glittering delusion and the pretended boon of American citizenship a shameless imposition." ~ Grover Cleveland, State of the Union (December 3, 1888)
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 12:01 AM
I get it, Z. You and I have disagreed before, yet continued to debate in an adult way, so let's continue the trend. My discontent with the current Admin stems from what I perceive as government by intent. They seem to turn a blind eye to the result. That runs counter to everything I believe in. The ACA may have helped some, but when it wiped out policies and raised rates for many, then to me, it failed its intended goal. To expand on this would take a lot of time and words. One day we'll chat about ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 15, 14 8:39 AM
I'd prefer less ideology as well.

However I simply cannot abide by religious beliefs being applied in a civic environment in this country. If you want a religious objection, found a Church or a non-profit religious organization. If you are operating in a civic environment, for profit, you are operating in a secular environment and religious beliefs do not apply. As I've said, go ahead and try to post the Ten Commandments in the break room. Best of luck with that one, eh?

Some ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 9:21 AM
Right, so chicken and egg arguments come into play.
Lower insurance premiums should (in theory) result in higher wages for employees. That's how it works here, and maybe I'm the exception. Healthcare was never intended to be the all encompassing animal it has become. The more benefit we expect, the higher the cost, and it's not in proportion. Your points are all valid, and perhaps I look at the issue with bias because it's killing me. I'd rather give money to employees than to Oxford.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 15, 14 9:54 AM
And, giving back to the employees is the honorable, and a highly laudable thing to do. However, as a matter of course it tends to be the exception to the rule.

If it wasn't, the wealth gap would not be increasing like a gorge being carved after a dam break.

By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 4:47 PM
There have been so many major scandals during the obama administration that it’s getting hard to keep them from getting all jumbled up in your mind into one... big... crappy presidency. There was Obama corrupting the IRS to target American citizens he disagrees with... there was that criminal political hack - what do you call him? - oh yeah, the Attorney General Eric Holder... refusing to enforce legislation he doesn’t like...
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 14, 14 11:29 AM
Then there was freeing those five terrorists to secure the release of the guy from Showtime’s Homeland... because we never leave an American behind... unless he happens to be an ambassador being murdered by a politically inconvenient terrorist attack in Benghazi in which case... meh...

Even President Obama himself can no longer keep track of all the ways he’s violating the constitution. He only finds out about his latest scurrilous malfeasance when he hears about it through ...more
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 14, 14 11:30 AM
Chicago Inner City Blacks GO OFF on Obama Over Illegal Immigration “Worst President Ever”
Posted by Jim Hoft on Saturday, July 12, 2014, 10:26 PM

This seems to be the paradoxical problem for Obama a sizable portion of the African American population dose not like whats going on at the border one bit.
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 14, 14 12:50 PM
All this because an employer didn't want to offer POST CONCEPTION, birth control! Personal responsibility people, personal responsibility!
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jul 15, 14 6:17 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jul 15, 14 6:18 AM
It's about a RELIGIOUS objection applied in a CIVIC environment. They are applying values based in religion where they are prohibited by the Constitution.

Just like cherry picking the Bible. Funniest thing I saw lately? The woman who had Hebrew tattooed on her body. Leviticus 19:28 ring a bell?
Jul 15, 14 7:27 AM appended by Mr. Z
You should try Madalyn Murray O'Hair sometime. It's "Enlightening"...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 7:27 AM
So true Marlin.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 15, 14 2:51 PM
MSNBC’s “Hardball” anchor Chris Matthews said “it still looks like the republicans will win the senate. I would bet on them winning the senate right now” in a discussion on Tuesday’s “Morning Joe.”
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 15, 14 3:40 PM
It seems FRED has done the math, ANNNND more "Zombie Lies" exposed:

Federal Reserve Statistics Destroy Republican Myth of Pres. Obama’s ‘Part-Time America’

"...the increase in the growth of part-time employment happened before the Affordable Care Act even became a law in 2010. Instead, it seems to coincide with economic recovery data in the wake of the 2007-2008 financial crisis, precipitated in part by the Bush administration’s reckless economic deregulation.

Before ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 4:51 PM
to Mr. Z:

Oh, my goodness, the B.S. that the extreme Right-Wing has been spewing for all these months about the recovery not being "real" is - - - B.S.!

Who coudda guessed?


By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 15, 14 8:18 PM
U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 16 Jul 2014 at 03:16:59 AM GMT is:

$ 1 7 , 5 9 4 , 8 3 5 , 6 4 5 , 5 8 4 . 4 7
Jul 15, 14 11:17 PM appended by They call me
HHS Lighting the fuse of propaganda once again
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 15, 14 11:17 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


What will over thirty years of reckless fiscal policy get you?

Piketty is a long read, but it has pictures so you should be OK.
Jul 15, 14 11:28 PM appended by Mr. Z
And, considering no Republican since Eisenhower has reduced the deficit, the GOP doing so would be a neat new trick...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 15, 14 11:28 PM
Actually, the source is Federal Reserve numbers, and the source article was originally in "The Atlantic". It is authored by Derek Thompson, and titled "Here's What Obama's 'Part-Time America' Really Looks Like". "The Atlantic" hardly has a reputation for being "slanted".

Thanks for playing...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 9:33 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 16, 14 2:46 PM
philofnonsense
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 16, 14 3:19 PM
As you should Cap.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 3:25 PM
Maybe the republicans should have participated in bringing about recovery instead of obstructing for the last six years....

Really ? And what did you and you band of progressives do for the 8 years before with your Prius "Buck Fush bumper stickers all over town. Pleeeese!

You own this mess not us!
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 16, 14 4:59 PM
1 member liked this comment
Maybe there is hope after all...

The new Pew survey identified. A research paper, “Generational Difference in Perception of Tax Equity and Attitudes Towards Compliance,” found that “the Millennial generation was less likely to recommend progressive taxation” than older generations...and some other promising results where reveled by this survey
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 16, 14 5:21 PM
The two groups were asked to choose whether “most people can get ahead if they’re willing to work hard” or whether “hard work and determination are no guarantee of success for most people.” A decisive majority of the older “solid liberal” group, 67 percent, responded that hard work is no guarantee of success, while an even larger majority, 77 percent, of the younger “next generation left” believes that you can get ahead if you are willing to ...more
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 16, 14 5:28 PM
"We discover that the fortunes realized by our manufacturers are no longer solely the reward of sturdy industry and enlightened foresight, but that they result from the discriminating favor of the Government and are largely built upon undue exactions from the masses of our people. The gulf between employers and the employed is constantly widening, and classes are rapidly forming, one comprising the very rich and powerful, while in another are found the toiling poor.

As we view the achievements ...more
Jul 16, 14 5:50 PM appended by Mr. Z
Dylan Ratigan, 2011 "rant". Political Panic
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 5:50 PM
UD, Ronald Regan, Donald Regan, Wendy Gramm, Phil Gramm, and Alan Greenspan "own this mess", and they are all card carrying Republicans.

Please do get over it.
Jul 16, 14 7:31 PM appended by Mr. Z
"Our Congress is bought." ~ Dylan Ratigan **** getmoneyout dotcom
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 7:31 PM
The man just stated a factual poll and you tell him reality is different

Your reality , when you watch MSNBC and there stacked guests all have the same opinion its no wonder you feel that way, (I'm Ed Shultz and here with us tonight as usaual is Eugene Robinson and David Corn" I'm Lawrence O'Donnell here with Ezra Klein, Julian Epstein and Joy-Ann Reid) Its pathetic, Your never exposed to an opposing view point. You should crawl out of your NY Times approved cocoon every now and then. ...more
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 17, 14 6:19 PM
"There you go again"

hardly a landslide, and more buyers remorse than any POTUS in history even makes Jimmy Carter look like a patriot in comparison
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 17, 14 8:26 PM
recovery as real as the money it's printed on
reality check coming...soon?
By loading... (601), quiogue on Jul 15, 14 11:42 PM
1 member liked this comment
Bet your bottom dollar.

Failed fiat currencies since 1649:


Currency Name (Currency Code) * Inception * Duration in years

Venezuela Bolivar Fuerte * 2008 * 7 mos.
Sudanese Pound (SDG) * 2007 * 1
Turkish New Lira (TRY) * 2005 * 3
Suriname Dollar (SRD) * 2004 * 4
Afghanistan Afghani (AFN) * 2002 * 6
Yugoslav Noviy (Super) Dinar (SCD) * 2002 * 6
Transnistrian ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 12:08 AM
The Russia-China gas deal is the beginning of the end for the Petrodollar, and when the US dollar is no longer the reserve currency of the world...well, it's not a pretty picture.
By loading... (601), quiogue on Jul 16, 14 2:59 AM
Being the reserve currency is the only reason it's still afloat. Fiat economies are more about faith, than value. Markets are an excellent study in human psychology. People like to blame government interference, or subsidies, but the root problem is people. Just because you can benefit from largesse, doesn't mean you should go full throttle and cast aside efficiency and/or quality for volume. Many a vast fortune was made in such a manner, particularly those in the days of the industrial revolution, ...more
Jul 16, 14 9:19 AM appended by Mr. Z
Remember, when your greed consumes your charity, you are the problem which creates the need for your "charity". Even though you one may "give back", doesn't necessarily mean one is not selfish.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 16, 14 9:19 AM
Cloward–Piven strategy being implemented...
OBAMA 'WORST PRESIDENT OF MY LIFETIME'...
White House Boasts 'Tranquility of Global Community'...
ENDLESS WAVE' FLOODS ACROSS...
Pregnant teen surge...
You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet'...
Influx overwhelming MA town...
Reid: 'Border is secure'...
Hundreds of cities fight back against 'invasion'...
NEW SHOWDOWN IN AZ...
VIDEO: Illegals Bussed to WALMART With EBT Cards?
SESSIONS WARNS: OBAMA ACTION 'THREATENS ...more
Jul 16, 14 1:30 AM appended by Undocumented Democrat
SESSIONS WARNS: OBAMA ACTION 'THREATENS ...more FOUNDATION OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC'... CHILDREN Found Floating dead in Rio Grande... 95% Expect to Receive 'Permisos' to Stay... Coyotes Making $50,000 A Week... Leaders plead with migrant parents... 'Keep your family together'... CA Health Officials Perplexed By Unusual Spike In Whooping Cough Cases... Doctor warns of drug-resistant tropical disease outbreak... NYPD: Al Qaeda Magazine Suggests Attack On US OPEN... BACKTRACK: MD governor asks White House NOT to send illegals to his state... CT rejects children... L.A. Plan To Provide Housing Outrages Homeless... Illegals hide in natural gas pipeline... Hundreds of cities fight back against 'invasion'... BUCHANAN WARNS: AMERICA COULD BREAK UP... TURLEY: Power grab 'constitutional tipping point'... REPORT: Feds to open $50 million resort to illegal children... Honduras seeks aid on migrants, suggests 'mini-Marshall plan'... DEMS PUSH AMNESTY: 'This is America. Doors are open'... MS-13 Gang Member Arrested with Car Full of Illegal Recruits... Former Border Chief: 'All of Good Done After 9/11 Reversed Singlehandedly'... RELEASED ILLEGAL ALIENS ARRESTED FOR MURDER
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 16, 14 1:30 AM
1 member liked this comment
philthy post
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 16, 14 8:08 PM
Seems the media hasn't publicized this too much. Hmmmm...

Judge Rules that Florida Republicans Tried to Rig Congressional Elections


"Unethical gerrymandering by the GOP is how Republicans currently control the House of Representatives, despite the fact that they lost the overall popular vote by over 1.5 million votes."
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 17, 14 12:15 AM
1 member liked this comment
The media does not report allot of things just look at the fine list provided by UD earlier today,

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Vista) released a recording on Wednesday that his office said supported allegations of improper fundraising activity by Los Angeles County Supervisor-elect Hilda Solis' when she served as U.S. Secretary of Labor.

Issa, whose House Oversight and Government Reform Committee obtained the audio as part of an ongoing probe of political activities by government employees, ...more
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 17, 14 1:18 AM
Issa?

Holy pot and kettle, Batman!!
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 17, 14 9:04 AM
1 member liked this comment
And it goes on,
REPORT: HHS DISPERSING ILLEGALS WITH CONTAGIOUS DISEASES THROUGHOUT COUNTRY
ABCNEWS: MEDICAL 'BREAKDOWN' ON BORDER...
GALLUP: ILLEGALS TOP PROBLEM...
POLL: Send them home NOW!
REPORT: Obama vows to reduce deportations...
PELOSI: Slow down...
Feds releasing children into unsafe homes...
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 17, 14 2:29 PM
Hilary Clinton ~ We have not been telling our story very well. We do have a great story. We have a great story about human freedom, human rights, human opportunity, and let's get back to telling it to ourselves first and foremost and believing it about ourselves and then taking that around the world.

Sounds light years better than the current philosophy in the White House
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 17, 14 7:15 AM
1 member liked this comment
Here's a story for you joe:

I was poor, but a GOP die-hard: How I finally left the politics of shame

I hated government -- even as it was the only thing trying to save me. Here's how, one day, I finally saw the light

Edwin Lyngar

"I was a 20-year-old college dropout with no more than $100 in the bank the day my son was born in 1994. I’d been in the Coast Guard just over six months. Joining the service was my solution to a lot of problems, not the least ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 17, 14 9:07 AM
Not a story for me for sure...Its a story of a loser
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 17, 14 2:19 PM
I kind of agree Joe. This guy wants to blame everything on everyone else. Bad car finance, bad mortgage..... Sounds like bad decision making.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 17, 14 8:32 PM
You really think he blames his mistakes on others? That's what you took away from a story of a man who served in the Coast Guard, improved his life, got douched by the mortgage bubble, and learned the hard way about some types of crappy car salesman?

Y'all do suck at reading comprehension, and dealing with facts and reality. Thanks for the insight into what you're minds are made of.
Jul 17, 14 11:04 PM appended by Mr. Z
"I felt my own poverty was a moral failure." Nah, that statement totally clears him of blaming himself. **** you guys can be stupid.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 17, 14 11:04 PM
Read me:

Flash Boys: A Wall Street Revolt
Written by: Michael Lewis

"Flash Boys is about a small group of Wall Street guys who figure out that the U.S. stock market has been rigged for the benefit of insiders and that, post–financial crisis, the markets have become not more free but less, and more controlled by the big Wall Street banks. Working at different firms, they come to this realization separately; but after they discover one another, the flash boys band together ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 18, 14 12:49 AM
My reading comprehension is fine. This guy is a whiner, and you fell for it..
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 18, 14 3:47 PM
1 member liked this comment
Michael Lewis is a great writer and seems to have a knack for discovering the underbelly of Wall St. I put it on the kindle list.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 18, 14 6:18 PM
phil you are among a wilting ideology the gig is up, the curtain has been pulled back and just like that little wizard of oz the people see your propaganda for what it is.

the guy was a loser and a taker like joe and dnice have pointed out
By Erin 27 E (1281), southampton on Jul 18, 14 6:53 PM
Phil, you really shouldn't talk about character.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 18, 14 8:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
I wasn't talking about character, you were. More bla bla bla from the resident blowhard.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 18, 14 9:23 PM
"How many of your last 100 comments actually addressed a topic?"

Everyone of them.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 19, 14 12:04 PM
Lol, I see you are using your favorite tactic, calling someone a liar. Man you are dense.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 19, 14 8:08 PM
Thursday, July 17, 2014

Rasmussen Reports Voters Want to Send Latest Illegal Immigrants Home Now!

Most voters don’t want any of the young illegal immigrants who’ve recently arrived here housed in their state and say any legislation passed by Congress to deal with the problem should focus on sending them home as soon as possible.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 69% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the primary focus of any new immigration ...more
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 17, 14 4:28 PM
to They call me:

EVERYONE wants the unaccompanied undocumented children to be sent home. That isn't an issue. Logistics and legality are the problem. In order to discourage Central Americans from shipping their kids north, we have to convince them that to do so is futile. Holding the children in government facilities (rather than releasing them [because we have no incarcerated space for them]) and returning them as soon as a judge (according to the Bush 2008 law) has determined that ...more
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 18, 14 12:53 AM
And this is how the GOP suggests we should pay for it:

GOP candidate wants to open up drilling in Yellowstone National Park
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 18, 14 6:35 AM
people are not buying what you 3 are selling anymore this from the NY Newspaper comments section
Amit Carl • a day ago
A Republican POTUS with the exact same record Obama has offered up in his five and a half years in office would probably have an approval rate well below thirty percent and would be enduring a 24/7 effort by the MSM calling for his impeachment and/or resignation. His numbers remain just north of 40% mostly because of the continued support of non-whites, single women, ...more
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 18, 14 10:21 AM
2 members liked this comment
They won't hear you, Un Doc. They won't hear you because your result doesn't jive with liberal intent and ideology.
The ACA made our insurance policy disappear. The bronze level exchange, which was slightly higher than what we were paying, has unpalatable post tax dollars deductibles. So our new plan here cost me more, and 1 person had to leave because of it. So I'm the guy who offers PT work now. They attack that too as "greed" and "abuse of employees" because Liberals lack the ability to ...more
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 5:07 PM
The problems with arguing with guys like Phil are, he's indoctrinated, so here's not here to debate, he's here to spew propaganda. He also equates all business with big business ie. Walmart = local hardware store, and vilifies each the same. And sadly, he thinks we are turning into Iran, which is funny on the surface, but offers a clue as to who you are arguing with. Rest assured, there are a lot of moderates that know rot when they see it. 2016 should prove that.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 5:13 PM
I have your comments to back me up there, Philly. You are a case study in why playing to your base works. No need to strive for positive results when your base gives you a free pass because of your intentions.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 8:02 PM
NO Republican POTUS since Eisenhower reduced the deficit, or reduced the national debt. Their policies have only driven this country FURTHER into debt, including the "conservative" hero Ronald Reagan who TRIPLED THE NATIONAL DEBT.

Conservative policies led to the S&L crisis. Conservative policies led to SECRET exemptions from hedging regulations to 19 major banks and market participants, allowing them to accumulate unlimited positions on commodities. Only AFTER the 2008 financial crisis ...more
Jul 19, 14 12:49 AM appended by Mr. Z
And, it bears mentioning that the "cult leader" Alan Greenspan was principally responsible for preaching "free market" orthodoxy, while at the same time insulating wealthy market patrons from those same market forces. If you have a brain in your head, you can see through the con of the century. Prerequisite is that you need to apply not only your mind, but yourself...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 12:49 AM
Yeah, except for too many hours on the clock.

That reply was for UD's "not buying what you're selling" post. Do the country a favor and support the 28th Amendment barring corporations from civic life.

We shouldn't buy what the corporate shills, and K Street prostitutes are selling either...
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 6:31 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble Mr Z but anyone that got "douched" by taking out a mortgage that they could not pay back, or took an adjustable rate, or an interest only is an idiot! Personal responsibility people, personal responsibility!
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jul 18, 14 4:56 PM
Classy. I thought you were the sensitive type, Philly.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 8:03 PM
Right? Just like Iran.... No thought allowed. Shhhhhhh... They might be listening, Philly.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 11:17 PM
Proof again you're not that bright.

His house went UNDERWATER, and he still paid his mortgage which was oversized, and overvalued. Have you begun to realize how you are part of the problem yet?
Jul 19, 14 12:17 AM appended by Mr. Z
"Republicans: The number one reason the rest of the world thinks we're deaf, dumb, and dangerous." ~ Garrison Keillor
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 12:17 AM
I broke out laughing after you said "I thought"

Not really that witty Phil.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 18, 14 9:24 PM
Americans protest amnesty in 319 cities
Rallies strong despite 'media blackout' from CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC
UPDATE: Four Cases of Life-Threatening Plague Found in CO...
White House to meet with Central American presidents...
Feds Drop 'Unknown Number' of Illegals Outside DC Without Warning...
Obama could force cities to house...
Two-thirds of children approved for asylum...
Doctor warns schools face health crisis...
UPDATE: Border protests kick off across USA...

By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 18, 14 10:31 PM
Related, remember when you wrote that SCOTUS is turning us into Iran? That was funny. So tell us about the hair on fire crowd again.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 18, 14 11:25 PM
MARK LEVIN: This airliner shot out of the sky intentionally with a ground to air missile. A BUK, a Russian made highly sophisticated missile. Not one of those missiles you carry around on your back. Is this not a wake up call yet again? Does it not remind us yet again of 9/11 and acts that can occur in this country? I'm just saying these tragedies are not tragedies. They're attacks. They're intentional. And it's gonna happen here. It's gonna happen here. Because among other things, Obama is into ...more
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 19, 14 1:06 AM
So Mark Levin's comments somehow validate your ridiculous and ignorant assertion that SCOTUS is turning the USA into Iran? Pointing out radicals on the right does not make your views any less radical, and in this case downright idiotic. Phil, you hung yourself with your own rope.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 19, 14 7:49 AM
The only things Levin is good at is being a sensationalizing neo-con whipping up a frenzy with his "issues", FUD, and typing out the word "statist" in a book like a second grader using "very" in an essay.

Maybe we just should have marched on Moscow, or the Crimea? Would that make your hero happy? The United States does not own the world, nor are we still an Imperialist nation. This conflict has gone on since BIBLICAL times. But, I'm sure Republicans will find some BS excuse to blame ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 8:12 AM
Only one from WND I compiled them from many sources
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 18, 14 11:03 PM
Guess you have not looked at the partisan train wreck that is MSLSD as off late
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 18, 14 11:40 PM
Meh. Phil is a lost cause. Moderates and Independents will determine where the country goes. I think the mid-terms will be rather telling.
By double standard (1506), Remsenburg on Jul 19, 14 7:52 AM
Phil the victim. Yeah right.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 19, 14 12:11 PM
No. I'm addressing your post.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 19, 14 8:03 PM
Oh I know, nobody goes off topic here. Btw, thought you were ignoring me?
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 20, 14 1:48 PM
So I think it would be interesting to poll HHS, Phil, Z, METS FAN

If you had to answer who is to blame for the current fighting in the Gaza would it be Israel or Hamas.

Bet they will not answer with just a one word answer or they will just not answer at all.
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 19, 14 6:12 PM
Both.
Jul 19, 14 6:35 PM appended by Mr. Z
After all this time, you really think I would not entertain your interrogative? I'm a bit hurt... [guffaw]
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 6:35 PM
One out of four is more than I expected, but since you found a way to skirt the question let me re phrase it.

who is more to blame for the current fighting in the Gaza would it be Israel or Hamas.

one word answer please... consisting of one or the other

By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 20, 14 11:20 AM
Blind support for the Palestinian terrorist state is so inexplicable it's almost like a mental illness. The MSM bears most of the culpability. Nonetheless, these people show as a community they are not able to assimilate into western society again and again and again.
Jul 20, 14 11:28 AM appended by 27dan
Tens of thousands rally in London against Israel’s Gaza op In huge demonstration, protesters denounce Israel as terrorist state, castigate PM Cameron for backing right to self-defense BY SPENCER HO July 19, 2014, 5:28 pm
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 20, 14 11:28 AM
welcome to the new world, where evil is good and good is evil. i'm thinking there's probably a lot of brittish and french that are regretting their loose immigration policies about now
By Erin 27 E (1281), southampton on Jul 20, 14 11:38 AM
The world is not black and white, and there are no sides to be taken. There is no "one word" answer from me on this one. It takes two to tango.

You have my answer, no skirting involved. Laying fault or blame is pointless. The violence must end. Bombs and guns do not bring peace, just the short term illusion of it once a faction has been rendered unable to make war.
Jul 20, 14 11:59 AM appended by Mr. Z
"Ideology, not solutions." ~ The Tea Party
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 20, 14 11:59 AM
if i need to learn more about animal behavior i can go to the zoo
By Erin 27 E (1281), southampton on Jul 20, 14 12:09 PM
Maybe you should see video from overnight in Gaza. More civilians and children murdered. I'm starting to lean toward Israel. Cut it all of. Their billions in aid, all the jets and weapons, and let's see them murder civilians like this with sticks and stones. Maybe they'd lose their taste for it if they had to do it with their bare hands.

"With great power, comes great responsibility."
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 20, 14 12:38 PM
Seems Hamas has only four sympathizers Qatar, Turkey, Phil and Mr Z
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 21, 14 11:41 AM
2 members liked this comment
Hamas NO.

Palestinians who don't deserve to be murdered in cold blood, yes.

You really are an [expletive deleted].
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 21, 14 7:52 PM
1 member liked this comment
Israel shelled a HOSPITAL.

Pull the plug. No more American dollars, or equipment.

Such an act goes beyond vile, detestable, and is beyond criminal.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 23, 14 12:04 AM
1 member liked this comment
Look folks!!

For your entertainment, and armchair psychologist. I've got a wild idea. We take away the guns, we take away the bombs, we take away all machinations of killing and death, and let's see how palatable killing becomes. Weapons of death don't make you strong. It's your character which does that. Your character posting here displays all the characteristics of a TROLL. Over a thousand posts, and nothing of substance. Just one, or occasionally more than one sentence that are ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 24, 14 8:55 AM
Bombing of schools and hospitals is absolutely tragic. Israel has been a model of restraint when it comes to these types of actions. No country has been shelled with more rockets than Israel. Doesn't excuse what they did. I will wait to see if the hospital or school was a front or possibly hiding munitions. If not, they have indeed crossed the line and should be held accountable.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 24, 14 7:42 PM
This is why nobody takes you seriously Phil. Hyperbole.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 24, 14 8:52 PM
I want to be clear on your position....schools and hospitals are valid targets? No

It is hard for me to believe that you had trouble understanding my post. Obtuse is the word that comes to mind. My point was that terrorists have been known to hide munitions in schools and hospitals. That isn't justification to bomb those buildings if patients or children were there, unless Israel didn't know what those buildings were which I don't think is the case. Israel has been a loyal ally to ...more
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 25, 14 11:02 AM
I can't believe you are having this much trouble with reading comprehension Phil. Good thing everyone else doesn't live in your either/or world.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 26, 14 3:34 PM
Cut and paste, how surprising. I get it Phil, you don't like the Jews.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 27, 14 7:27 PM
The only thing I can't come to terms with is your penchant for twisting posts. Either learn how to read or state your true intentions. Israel has not been "indiscriminate" Phil. Why post like such a weasel?
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 27, 14 9:01 PM
Phil wrote -I have no problem with anybody

Yeah, uh huh.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 27, 14 9:04 PM
Not your best work Phil.
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 31, 14 10:53 PM
Ahhh, soothing anecdotes...


via: Bob Schulte>

A Day in the Life of Joe Republican

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.
With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 7:33 PM
1 member liked this comment
Townhall.com
John Hawkins | July 19, 2014

1) Liberalism is college professors and documentary filmmakers accumulating vast fortunes in a capitalistic system by decrying the evils of capitalism.

2) Liberalism is claiming that the "border is secure" while saying we shouldn't deport anyone who illegally crosses the border.

3) Liberalism is "environmental activists" flying across the world to ride together in SUVs to posh environmental conferences where they call for everyone ...more
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 19, 14 8:22 PM
1 member liked this comment
It's funny, but it's moreover poking fun at widespread hypocrisy than a serious statement about infrastructure and daily life. The bloke who wrote it may want to research what "liberalism" actually means. Teddy Roosevelt is an actual Liberal, and "modern liberalism" is a far cry from what the word has meant up until recently.

"Socialism" paves roads, built the Eisenhower Interstate System, maintains our infrastructure, provides the GI Bill, maintains our Defense Department and military, ...more
Jul 20, 14 11:38 PM appended by Mr. Z
Food for thought: "He who ignores the cries of the poor, will be ignored in his own time of need." Proverbs, 21:13
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 19, 14 11:38 PM
2 members liked this comment
No one is looking to ignore the poor, its like I believe Erin was the first to point out.

The poor do not need free air conditioning when we have already provided them with fans
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 20, 14 2:13 AM
Nice proverb, but in the real world there are "poor" who do need A/C, or the heat can be, and has been the cause of their death.

Teach a man to build a swamp cooler, eh?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 20, 14 4:05 AM
Capitalism engages the return of feudalism:

NYC gives the green light to the building of apartments with a 'poor door' for tenants living in affordable housing


The City of New York approved a proposal by one of the largest real estate developers in the city to build in a 'poor door', or a separate door for residents living in affordable housing to enter their building.

According to a Saturday report from the New York Post, the city approved the application of Extell, ...more
Jul 21, 14 5:37 AM appended by Mr. Z
"The superior man understands righteousness. The inferior man understands profits." ~ Confucius
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 21, 14 5:37 AM
Regnum aureus.

Fiddle Fiddle Fiddle
By Nero (301), Sag Harbor on Jul 21, 14 6:21 AM
'No one ever said that the goal was full integration of these populations,' David Von Spreckelsen, senior vice president at Toll Brothers, another developer specializing in luxury residencies, told The Real Deal in 2013. 'So now you have politicians talking about that, saying how horrible those back doors are. I think it’s unfair to expect very high-income homeowners who paid a fortune to live in their building to have to be in the same boat as low-income renters, who are very fortunate to ...more
By dnice (2346), Hampton Bays on Jul 21, 14 7:26 AM
2 members liked this comment
It's what I've referred to as "de pecuniae" segregation.

We all remember "de facto" segregation, don't we?
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 21, 14 9:35 AM
Back on topic, Our choices in the upcoming election are clear, BIG government, higher taxes, weaker military VS smaller less intrusive government, lower taxes, stronger nation.
By bigfresh (4666), north sea on Jul 20, 14 8:52 AM
Smart people don't buy simplistic spoon fed talking points. We'll see just how smart this nation is during the mid-terms.

The world is not black and white, and the last thirty years have proven again, historically; what fails, and what does not.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 20, 14 11:55 AM
Good Call BF
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 21, 14 2:23 PM
1 member liked this comment
Tomgram: Engelhardt, The Age of Impunity

Posted by Tom Engelhardt at 6:13pm, July 13, 2014.
Follow TomDispatch on Twitter @TomDispatch.

An Exceptional Decline for the Exceptional Country?
The Empire as Basket Case
By Tom Engelhardt

For America’s national security state, this is the age of impunity. Nothing it does -- torture, kidnapping, assassination, illegal surveillance, you name it -- will ever be brought to court. For none of its beyond-the-boundaries ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 21, 14 6:08 AM
1 member liked this comment
Not sure if this picture is real or not but it seems to be all over the net with report

"Check out what Americas president is reading.The Post-American World, By Fareed Zakaria. A Muslim perspective on a future without U.S. Dominance"

if it is true, wow just wow wtf is going on here anyway.
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 21, 14 3:03 PM
It seems he has been photographed with this book several times in the past 5 years, according to Phil approved Snopes. the picture you posted is indeed very real. Snopes says Obama is reading "The Post-American World" it's is debatable whether it is really a Muslim's view of a defeated America! but never the less It does not subscribe to American exceptionalism for sure. and IMO a strange book for the POTUS to be brandishing around.
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 21, 14 3:16 PM
Its really no wonder that in a new poll that is being widly reported today it reads

"40% STILL NOT SURE OBAMA IS AMERICAN CITIZEN"

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 58% of American Adults reject the possibility obama was not born in the US
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 21, 14 3:26 PM
Well that tells you something about the type of people that have land lines and take the time to reply to "national surveys" about whether or not our president is an American citizen.
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 21, 14 4:10 PM
There was a time when we weren't supposed to read Aldous Huxley, or Mark Twain, or even John Steinbeck. At least we've stopped burning books, but as Ray Bradbury will tell you "there's more than one way to burn a book."

If you think that reading a book which expresses a point of view you believe you disagree with, try thinking for a change. If you actually did, you'd realize that being an effective negotiator means thoroughly understanding an opposing point of view. Books tend to help ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 21, 14 6:05 PM
1 member liked this comment
Oh please spare us... do you think for one moment he would be parading around with Dinish Dsouzas book in public... I think not, just look at the GQ pose he was pandering to the base as par usual
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 21, 14 6:42 PM
Z brings some sense to this ridiculous conversation.
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 21, 14 8:27 PM
If they really think that thins will be better after Obama's term office, they still have no clue, or figured out what the problem is yet.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 22, 14 7:21 AM
Stupidity loves company. Pathetic people.
By Mets fan (1501), Southampton on Jul 22, 14 8:44 AM
< ---- Book jacket from first run of Dreams of my father.

Just Sayin
Jul 22, 14 12:00 PM appended by They call me
"Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of ...."
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 22, 14 12:00 PM
TCM , your not supposed to publicly question things like that or this official Columbia student ID that says FOREIGN STUDENT because if you do Mets fan will call you stupid and pathetic for noticing.

Snopes says, "Research on this could not be confirmed and It Could this be the reason his "classmates" don't remember him, or why his records can't be found? Perhaps he was not even "Barack Obama" at the time! ???

Could you Imagine GWB had such a 007 past, WTF
Jul 22, 14 12:17 PM appended by Undocumented Democrat
Smart people don't buy simplistic spoon fed talking points.
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 22, 14 12:17 PM
One thing I have learned is that photographs can be very easily doctored. Changed to represent something other than what the true picture is. Oh but everyone knows that already.
By summertime (589), summerfield fl on Jul 22, 14 12:20 PM
I just looked up the book jacket thing and found this

May 18, 2012 - 'Born in Kenya': Obama's Literary Agent says he Misidentified His Birthplace in 1991

Opps just another "Mistake" Mets fan was right pathetic indeed
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 22, 14 12:32 PM
Someone is lying. According to Obama's Kenyan (paternal) grandmother, as well as his half-brother and half-sister, Barack Hussein Obama was born in Kenya, not in Hawaii as the Democratic candidate for president claims. His grandmother bragged that her grandson is about to be President of the United States and is so proud because she was present DURING HIS BIRTH IN KENYA, in the delivery room. but snopes says they later retracted the claims saying they were mistaking ??? WTF
By Undocumented Democrat (2065), southampton on Jul 22, 14 12:24 PM
Yeah, the Republicans perpetuating a myth are the liars in chief.

But, if the propaganda gets them some votes because stupid people will swallow the tripe whole. They don't care, as long as they can "win".
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 22, 14 7:43 PM
"Many courageous individuals proficient in those disciplines which are required for an in-depth technical analysis of the concerned long-form birth certificate copy have stepped forward with their evaluation reports. Most of these experts have decades of applicable experience, technical expertise and working knowledge which qualify them to make authoritative assessments. All of them have written that the LFBC, which still appears today at The White House Blog, is either a forgery, a fake, an altered ...more
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 22, 14 12:59 PM
I am a true believer in the saying where there is smoke theres fire and in this case to just close the door when smoke is coming out all 10 windows seems a tad bit dismissive to say the least.

maybe captain or mr z or joe could answer this for me? if it was proved he was born in kenya, would his presidency and all the laws that come with it be nullified
By Erin 27 E (1281), southampton on Jul 22, 14 1:05 PM
How long are you going to hold onto this? He's only got a couple years left... does it matter at this point?
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 22, 14 1:05 PM
Nature ? Really the Hillary " What difference does it make" smoke screen lol

It makes a HUGE difference and

Yes Erin, There would be no doubt that there would be grounds to walk back all they have done since 2008.

That said... Don't Hold You Breath !
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 22, 14 1:16 PM
Statements about Obama Birth Certificate are available at Tampa Bay politifact. Also, there are experts who have shown that the machine used for the scan of the document creates a layered scan via OCR, or optical character recognition and programming, not a human hand. The adobe acrobat format used was created via OCR.

Anyone who says a "layered document" is proof of a forgery is either an idiot, or doesn't know how document scanners function. Any "layers" are from the scanner differentiating ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 22, 14 7:21 PM
Joe - the guy was elected by the populous TWICE.
By Nature (2966), Hampton Bays on Jul 23, 14 10:16 AM
Nature, granted... But you must concede that if it was ever shown there has been an orchestrated cover up about his place of birth, It would have an effect that would reverberate through out history and have major implications.
By joe hampton (3461), southampton on Jul 23, 14 10:33 AM
If and dead horses.

So sorry to the sore losers.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 23, 14 8:00 PM
That said, move on with your pathetic life. I know your only mission is to get the black man out of office. Take a look outside your window and see what a vibrant economy looks like. If your not getting a piece of that in some way, that is your mistake.
By Mets fan (1501), Southampton on Jul 22, 14 6:34 PM
If Obama were indeed born in Kenya, or some other foreign country, it could have and would have been proven conclusively by now- in a court of law- probably as a result of a lawsuit brought by the Republican Party in response to his first candidacy. It is simply not possible to conceal such a fact in the age of 24/7 microscopic scrutiny of politicians.

The Republicans brought no such suit, because there is no credible evidence. Had they been able to do so, and had they launched the suit ...more
By Panthan (2), Sacramento on Jul 22, 14 7:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit—a tribunal second only to the Supreme Court—ruled on Tuesday that the Obama administration broke the law. The panel found that President Obama spent billions of taxpayer dollars he had no authority to spend, and subjected millions of employers and individuals to taxes he had no authority to impose.
By 27dan (2854), Shinnecock Hills on Jul 23, 14 10:38 AM
The sound you hear would be "Conservative" heads exploding. All myth, ideology, and no applicable solutions.



5 Ways To Annoy Republicans: Fact-Checking Ronald Reagan
by Samuel Warde

Ronald Reagan is considered by the neo-conservative right (Tea Party) as their champion. But as history shows, this supposed hero would never have made it in today’s GOP.

It’s about time they quit rewriting history in an effort to cling to that false premise – ...more
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 22, 14 10:54 PM
1) Carried out military interventionism in Libya without Congressional approval

In June 2011, U.S. Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) said that Obama had violated the Constitution when he launched military operations in Libya without Congressional approval.

In April 2014, Ralph Nader said that Obama should be impeached for his actions in Libya.

2) Gave a no-bid contract to Halliburton cronies – just like Bush did

In May 2010, it was reported that the Obama ...more
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 22, 14 11:07 PM
Ignorant you can fix. Stupid, not so much.

1) War Powers Resolution of 1973. The same resolution Reagan used, and was condemned for by France, England, Spain, and most of the UN for the Libya bombing. Additionally, we were not permitted operate in the aforementioned countries airspace, or use their bases for refueling.

2) They're not Halliburton.

3) Holy culture shock Batman!! You need lobbyists until both sides condemn and eliminate them.

4) Alleged experts ...more
Jul 22, 14 11:32 PM appended by Mr. Z
And, posting this ill wrought garbage proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you fail at grasping D.C. culture. There is an entrenched system which will be very difficult to re-work, but with the will of the People it is possible.
By Mr. Z (11847), North Sea on Jul 22, 14 11:32 PM
11) Supported Bush’s unconstitutional Patriot Act

In May 2011, Obama signed a renewal of the Patriot Act.

12) Increased the national debt more in one term than Bush did in two

The national debt increased more during Obama’s first three years and two months than it did during all eight years of George W. Bush’s presidency.

13) Agrees with Bush’s support of unconstitutional, indefinite detention of U.S. citizens without filing any charges

In ...more
By They call me (2826), southampton on Jul 23, 14 1:38 AM
to Captn America:

You have conveniently overlooked the fact that all THREE branches of the federal government, the Executive, the Senate and the House were in Republican control in 2005 when Griffin was appointed. He is, simply, a dyed-in-the-wool Republican whose decision in Halbig v. Burwell is a tendentious exposition of his Right-Wing ideological bias.

The consensus is that the full Appellate Panel will reverse him by a large majority.
By highhatsize (4217), East Quogue on Jul 30, 14 10:01 PM
Hobby Lobby has every right to hot allow abortive measures to be covered under the insurance they offer to employees. That is their choice. They do, however, very generously cover 14 different forms of birth control and NOBODY is stopping employees from pursuing abortive care from any number of free clinic, including Planned Parenthood.
As for the member who keeps referring to a, "civil society" what exactly does that mean? Our 1st Amendment rights grants of freedom OF religion not freedom ...more
By JudyannJoyner RN (2), Bayside, New York on Oct 15, 14 3:38 PM